Episode 68:
How can we inspire the next generation of supply chain leaders?

Alex Hersham:
Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Freight to the Point, a podcast by Zencargo. I’m Alex Hersham, and today I’m joined by Bethany Windsor, who’s the Interim Director of Stakeholder Engagement and Relationship Management at the CILT. Today, we’re going to be speaking about how we can inspire the next generation of supply chain leaders, some of the key work skills that are required for modern supply chains, and the resources that are available to people who are eager to climb up the career ladder. And Bethany, if you don’t mind, I might even drop in some examples of people that are at Zencargo who have grown significantly and have become some of the future supply chain leaders.

Bethany Windsor:
We always love a case study.

Alex Hersham:
Fantastic. We have many, fortunately. Welcome. Maybe you can give a quick background on yourself and intro.

Bethany Windsor:
Sure. So yes, as Alex said, I currently work at the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport, and I am also Program Manager for Generation Logistics, more of which we will hear about later. I’ve had a very wiggly career journey, which is a phrase that I’d learned from our lovely careers leaders in schools and colleges when talking about how we all get into the profession. Primary school teacher into supply chain software into program management for CILT. So quite wiggly, but definitely found my home in logistics.

Alex Hersham:
Amazing. There’s definitely a joke in there somewhere about going from primary school to supply chain management. I’m not sure exactly what the joke is, but it’s there somewhere. Maybe we could just start because I really do want to get onto this topic of bringing the next generation through, find the incredible talent, cultivating and fostering that talent, et cetera. But just talk a bit about how the role of supply chain management has evolved over the years and then we can build that into building on talent.

Bethany Windsor:
Sure. I mean the last couple of years have been quite the few years, haven’t they? Quite the few years, whatever sector you work in, but I think we’ve obviously had some of these giant events like COVID. We’ve Had some of the events that have made the national press like the Suez Canal, like various shortages, toilet rolls, et cetera. So I think never before has logistics and supply chain been more in the public eye. I think that’s a great change. I think that’s given us the opportunity to really showcase some of the roles that the public might not know. And I think in terms of direction of travel, that obviously the race to net-zero, the automation agenda, it’s exciting. We don’t know what jobs there’ll be in five years time, and that’s hugely exciting if you are in the sector already. But certainly looking to step into the sector, you’ve got the chance to make a real change. So it feels exciting at the moment. It feels like we’re poised and ready to be very different to how we were even five years ago, but certainly 20.

Alex Hersham:
Yeah, I mean I see that really clearly. And I think what it speaks to is the different type of skillsets and the different needs that are going to come up through the supply chain. So you now have, I think you’ve always had the skillset of people that are very deep in the domain, really understand the nuts and bolts, actually quite enjoy understanding the physicality of it and how the network works together. And that is a really challenging skillset to build, takes time, and the supply chain industry been very lucky to have those people. But I think what we’re seeing now is a huge move towards data management, both in terms of data tools, but also in terms of how people think with a data mindset.

I think we’re moving a lot towards cross pollination and being able to work across stakeholder groups. And obviously this is now starting to talk a lot about the supply chain, either becoming the CEO and that transition that we’re starting to see a little bit. We’re not seeing as much as I think some people would like to think, but we are. But how does that mix of skillset impact both the calibre of people we can bring in, the attractiveness of roles and all the future planning we need to do?

Bethany Windsor:
I think in terms of the kinds of people that we need, I won’t bang on about the skill shortage, all of the listeners will be living and breathing it, I’m sure, but we are now looking, as you’ve quite rightly said, in many cases for a different kind of person, different skillset to what we would’ve been looking for previously. Regrettably, now so is everybody else. So outside of logistics, people want data analysts, people want project managers. People want those that are savvy with tech. And so we’re not only fighting for the skills that are perhaps very, very niche to our sector, I’ll pick on driving as a really good example, and maybe robbing Peter to pay Paul and moving people around the golden triangle or wherever else it might be. We’re now in the fight with many other sectors. And I love logistics. I love logistics. Cut me and I bleed tiny little lorries, but we are not necessarily a sexy sector or we are not portrayed as a sexy sector.

So we’ve got to really up our game, I think, in how we market ourselves and think about that retention piece as well. Of course, we don’t want to sell drone technology and driverless trucks and then we get people coming in and saying, “Okay, great, where are they? I’d like to use them and work with them.” It’s about being realistic, but we have to be in that fight and we have to show logistics off as being the well-paid, fast-paced, future-forward sector that it is, or we don’t stand a chance of getting those skills and then that holds us back. We can’t then progress. I think it’s also had an impact, or it certainly will have an impact if not perhaps so much already, on the entry level roles that we have in the sector. So perhaps instead of let’s say picking and packing becomes fully automated in many cases, we are looking less now for people who are at that particular time, we’re looking less for people who can do those jobs and more perhaps for people who might be able to do the engineering side of the kit that’s needed.

So it affects not only the roles that are coming up, but also the training for existing members of staff. Where the gaps might be, how do we reallocate people? It’s an exciting challenge. It’s probably a challenging challenge if you’re at the coalface of some of that change. But it’s without doubt that we are on a significant journey of change in terms of skills needed and an amount of people.

Alex Hersham:
We obviously started Zencargo seven years ago and we’ve had our own views across the journey. Sometimes we’ve thought them through and sometimes they’ve just played out in terms of what’s the right mix of people that have come from the industry and people that haven’t. And obviously a core part of our DNA is technology. About a third of our headcounts is in technology, and you are less likely to attract those from within the industry, design, product management, a lot in data. But we’ve got to a place where I would say just over half of our team, probably near 60%, has a background in supply chain management and a little of actually deep domain background, especially in the more let’s say operational roles, procurement and product roles, et cetera. But actually we have that other 40%, it’s not just in technology. They might also be in our growth organisation or marketing. They might be in our customer operations management where we’re really trying to raise the bar on how we communicate to customers. They might be some of those project management roles that you mentioned or continual improvement.

And that mix, as I said, I can’t profess to have said seven years ago we want a 60/40 split and that’s going to be the perfect split. We’ve meandered a little bit, but that mix has actually really worked very nicely and I think it’s brought the best out of people.

Bethany Windsor:
Absolutely.

Alex Hersham:
But we’re in a bit of a fortunate position because we’re perceived as a start up, we’re perceived as cool, we’re perceived as moving fast. We can attract from different pools of talent. I’m not sure every company in the logistics industry is a start up. They’re not all venture-backed. So it creates different challenges for them. How do you see them tackling these challenges?

Bethany Windsor:
So I think it’s an excellent point that you’ve managed to do that almost organically, but the mindset was there in the first place. So my bugbear both personally and professionally, is three to five years experience in logistics for roles that don’t need three to five years experience in logistics. With generation logistics, we take a job families approach. So if you think about all of the functions that either a logistics operation has or a business with a logistics function has, yes, you’ve got your operational roles, warehousing, transport, property and infrastructure, but you’ve also got HR, finance, marketing, customs, compliance, sustainability. The list goes on. And I think if we pigeonhole ourselves as a sector to only wanting those that know who we are as a sector, we know how small that pool is. So we need to really go back to the drawing board with our job descriptions and fine, if it’s going to be desirable, by all means put it in.

If you’ve done marketing at one 3PL, chances are great if you can come and do it at another. But we really do need to think about how do we make ourselves as open as possible to those with transferable skills, those trying to get back into the workplace, those that are underrepresented in logistics. How easy is it for them to see an opportunity and put their hat in the ring if we only want people with experience? So I’m not saying let inexperienced people run your warehouses or manage your fleet or be in charge of your tech, but there are roles that we are very blinkered on in some cases.

So for me it’s back to the drawing board, thinking about what do we actually need to get the job done and can we bring more people in? That’s what it’s about. It’s about opening people’s eyes to the sector and keeping them. That’s where we want to be. So some of that is incumbent on us as organisations to look at our practice. And some of it is getting the word out there with, I don’t want to say gatekeepers, but I’m going to say gatekeepers. People like teachers, careers leads, Job Centre Plus colleagues, anyone that has that access to the workplace, how do we augment their perceptions of the profession?

Alex Hersham:
And I’d love to speak about the whole idea of NextGen and how we build that. I think when we went to the Netherlands, one of the things that we were really excited about was the percentage of people in the Netherlands that study some type of transportation supply chain management degree or quasi degree at university, which to your point, I’m not saying that you need to go through university to get a great job. Actually, one of our most senior people in the business didn’t go to university and he’s been fantastic. But it’s a really interesting way of creating clusters, creating communities, and having people think about these career options. And when you were talking there, I agreed with everything that you were saying, but I also was thinking to myself, we also shouldn’t be defensive.

We should be able to think that we can attract a wide range and also the best within some of those. Because actually the industry that we work in is super interesting and I’m happy to share my journey as to why I got so excited about it. But so many people get excited about the tangible nature, get excited, to your point earlier, about sustainability, get excited to really understand what they’re doing and how it makes a difference in society. But maybe you can build on that and some of the NextGen work that you’re doing and how you’re engaging these young minds to come and work for businesses like Zencargo.

Bethany Windsor:
Yeah, so it is exactly that. It’s about positioning the future. These are the people that are going to come in and develop the stuff that we use for the foreseeable until they change it again. To young people, I think there is a bit of a double-edged sword when they think about logistics unless you position it from a future standpoint. We do get the question a lot, “Well, why would I choose to come and do this when it’s all going to be automated?” And that’s a real concern if you’re looking at perhaps one of the direct entry roles rather than a graduate role or an apprenticeship role, they often can be the jobs that are going to be automated. So it’s about positioning the sector as one that is evolving, but that you can evolve with it. We don’t have enough people. So the opportunity to step in and then to step up at pace is there.

There’s an LMI stat that says 49 point something percent of warehouse and distribution managers and directors will retire by 2025. Who’s going to do that job? So when you’re talking to young people, it’s a headache for us as a sector, of course it is, but for them, that’s their future. And we’ve got great examples of young managers, young directors who come and support with this, “This is my journey and how I got to where I got to,” which is really attractive to them. I think we’ve then got to make sure obviously that we’re backing it up. So when we do get great young people in our organisations that we’re not holding them back and saying, “Oh, you don’t have 20 years of experience. I’m afraid this isn’t something that you can weigh in on.” It’s about making sure that we’ve got that culture and all of the great technology and all of the sustainability drives will mean absolutely nothing if you are not walking the walk.

This isn’t about avocado toast or a table tennis table or whatever else we think 20-year olds want. It’s the things that we all want. It’s sensible performance management, it’s reverse mentoring. It’s being able to be in touch with people who make a difference in the business and feeling like you’re contributing to that. It’s those open channels of communication. It doesn’t matter what age, they are the things that you want. And we’re really seeing some great examples of employers who are doing seminal things in the young professional space that we can all learn from, that will not only get people in, but will keep them there as well. And it’s not all talking about drones, I promise.

Alex Hersham:
That’s really exciting. I mean, even for me to learn, are there any things that you want to share? Maybe you can’t for confidentiality reasons, but if you can, we’d love to hear some of those examples.

Bethany Windsor:
Yeah, sure. There’s certainly two that, two Wincanton examples where they’ve really kind of changed the game. The first is their Cygnets Program, cygnet’s like a baby swan. For those of you who are about to Google it, I’m not going to spell it because I’m not sure I can off the top of my head, but there we go. That is a program for 16 to 18 year olds. So really looking at how do we get that age group into what has been traditionally an 18 plus workplace, for health and safety reasons, and many other, obviously can’t be driving at that age, but we’ve put those barriers up for things like work experience, Saturday jobs, et cetera, because of health and safety and because it’s difficult. And actually Wincanton have gone, “It is difficult. We’re going to do it anyway.” So that program, I’d really recommend taking a look at if you’re looking to implement a bit of best practice.

And then their People Campus. People Campus’, I think there may be more than one now, but certainly People Campus singular at the moment, where I guess the best way to explain it is they are looking for jobs for people rather than people for jobs. So what hours can people do? What patterns can people do? Do you want to work six months of the year and then go skiing, work in a ski resort for the other six months? It doesn’t matter. It’s kind of saying, how can we be really flexible to maximise that talent pool? So yeah. But to me it’s a game changer. I haven’t really heard of anything like it. And alongside some of the fantastic training initiatives and apprenticeships, degree apprenticeships, that are really delivering at the end of it in terms of great young talent, it’s exciting. There’s lots going on out there, but as ever, there’s more that we can be doing. There’s more that we need to do to try and plug some of those gaps.

Alex Hersham:
The one thing that I haven’t seen yet, and maybe it’s just because hasn’t been on our radar, we’ve never been approached to work alongside a Wincanton or a Kuehne+Nagel or a Maersk or other medium size, and work collaboratively at university fairs, university campuses. I guess in part because it’s competitive because you’re recruiting. But I think that’s something that we could do as an industry more, maybe it already happens and you can detail it, where we’re really trying to go in as an industry and widen the pool rather than just trying to find the one person.

Bethany Windsor:
So Generation Logistics is that initiative in schools and colleges, where we are raising awareness that then allows each individual company to get into the bun fight and say, my company’s better than your company. But ultimately, if you don’t know what the sector is, you’re never going to get to the point of thinking about individual companies. At university level, the Chartered Institute has the Novus program where 20 or so companies have come together, competitors, the ones that you’ve mentioned, Wincanton, Kuehne+Nagel, both Novus sponsors.

Alex Hersham:
Not Zencargo there.

Bethany Windsor:
No, but welcome to, I can hit you up for that later.

Alex Hersham:
I would like to. I would like to. That was what you call a lay up question. I was hoping you would go into this. So continue, please.

Bethany Windsor:
I mean, Novus is one of my babies. Started in 2012 at the University of Huddersfield and now works across 10 different universities with undergrads who study logistics, supply chain, ops management, transport, or courses with one of those aspects as a component. And it’s really about bringing the applied education. So I did a psychology degree. I did three years in a classroom, never left it. Went out into the world of work and thought, well, what do I do with it? Now, I can tell you what our grads come out at the end of doing, because they’ve done summer placements, they’ve got a mentor, they’ve had guest lectures, site visits, a one-year work placement, maybe a zero hours contract at some point, on top of uni. They’ve done a relevant dissertation that’s usually around continuous improvement in their sponsoring company where they’ve done their placement. So when they come out at the other end, they hit the ground running.

Alex Hersham:
Yeah, amazing.

Bethany Windsor:
And there’s not enough of them. I’d love to have more students and that’s where Generation Logistics and Novus come together. But they are out there doing wonderful things and making me feel really old, by now recruiting other Novus students. So our 2016 cohort is actually out there recruiting the next generation. So it’s fantastic. There’s just not enough young people who choose to study logistics or who choose direct entry logistics as a career of first choice.

Alex Hersham:
That really does sound amazing. I would love Zencargo to be part of it, and we can pick that up after this. I think, I remember for my university days, you sort of see what’s available to you in that sort of thinned down view. You don’t see the whole world. You see just exactly what’s in front of you. And it depends a lot on the culture of that university, the sort of career paths that get pushed a little bit. I think that sounds absolutely fantastic. And again, if I was somebody young coming out of university, an industry that’s so tangible, an industry that’s honestly so ripe for change, but in a positive way, where you have a lot of businesses, not just Zencargo, a lot of great businesses that actually really do want to change and really do want to press on where there’s so much of a focus on sustainability, focus on people and cross-cultural interaction, I think it’s a fascinating place to come and work. And that’s why we’ve been able to recruit so many people from outside of the industry to join.

So listen, Bethany, I’m going to take you up on that. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. I hope all of our viewers have too. If you’re young and looking for work and you want to speak more about this, or thinking about getting into supply chain management, please reach out to me directly on LinkedIn. I’m sure Bethany would be very happy if you were to reach out to her as well.

Bethany Windsor:
Absolutely.

Alex Hersham:
And thank you all very much for joining this episode of Freight To The Point. Subscribe on Spotify, apple or Google Podcasts. And please do be in touch, as I said before, if you have any questions or if you or someone that you know is seeking about a career in supply chain. Thank you, Bethany.

Bethany Windsor:
Thank you.

Alex Hersham:
Thanks everyone.